Deforestation in Indonesia. As a first question, it would be useful to have some figures on deforestation in your country. What effects has the moratorium introduced by the Jakarta government in 2011 had, and is still having?
I think the moratorium has had no significant effects since it was announced by the government in 2011. The deforestation rate in Indonesia is still very high: it exceeded 800,000 hectares per year even after the moratorium came into force. Tree felling, both legal and illegal, is common across all forest areas of Indonesia, particularly in Sumatra and Kalimantan. These violations occur even in protected areas such as national parks, wildlife sanctuaries and other areas protected by law.

The causes. The expansion of palm oil plantations is among the main causes of deforestation in Indonesia, whose rate, in 2014, even surpassed that of Brazil. What are the effects on biodiversity?
We are losing biodiversity at a rate that has no equal anywhere in the world. Thousands of species are at risk because of deforestation in Indonesia. The typical lowland forest habitat that was home to elephants, tigers, rhinoceroses and orangutans has also been lost due to the expansion of palm oil plantations, the granting of permits to open new mines and the construction of large infrastructure projects. These animals will become extinct very soon if the Indonesian government fails to curb the deforestation rate. In 2013, the elephant was officially recognised as being at risk of extinction due to the loss of its habitat recorded over the previous ten years.

Responsible palm oil. You recently stated that "we are not against palm oil — we are only against it when palm oil plantations destroy the ‪‎forest". How can one recognise sustainable palm oil, the kind that does not destroy forests and biodiversity?
Not all palm oil plantations are poorly managed. Some companies I know manage them quite well. To do so, they must manage the plantations over a long period, without damaging forests and protecting areas important for biodiversity, without affecting water resources.

Many other plantations, on the other hand, are destroying the forest, threatening animals and creating conflict situations among local communities. The number of companies behaving badly is higher than those behaving well. Some even carry out large-scale deforestation and only afterwards adopt sustainability principles. For us these companies are the worst, because they destroy a forest rich in biodiversity and of fundamental importance to people. We hope the international community will take charge of this, not only by pushing for the adoption of RSPO (Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil) principles, but also by looking at the actions these companies have taken in the past for their plantations. If they destroy forests and then sign up to RSPO principles, they cannot receive praise as though the deforestation they carried out in the past had never happened.

Palm oil for Indonesia. Indonesia and Malaysia produce around 90 per cent of all the palm oil traded worldwide. What does this industry represent for Indonesia in terms of employment opportunities?
Palm oil production offers many employment opportunities for people living in Indonesia, but these are limited when plantations are managed by multinationals rather than local families. In the former case, a plantation of one thousand hectares can employ around one hundred people, but in this case the workers come from other areas. Yet when one thousand hectares are placed in the hands of the local community, managed as a company, at least 250 families can see their lives improve.

In any case, the issue is not how many jobs are created, but how much environment is destroyed by the expansion of these plantations. We are suffering phenomena such as drought, flooding, an increase in conflicts with wildlife, the destruction of infrastructure such as roads, and the loss of environmental awareness. The expansion of palm oil plantations into the most remote areas teaches people greed — to become ever wealthier without thinking about preserving the environment to enjoy it.

Local communities are thus tempted and take part in deforestation to make way for plantations even in unsuitable areas, such as on hilltops, on steep slopes or on land they should be protecting for their own survival. There is no benefit in finding a job if the majority of us then end up suffering from environmental disasters caused by tree felling.

For Indonesians. Is palm oil part of the traditional Indonesian diet? What are its benefits and drawbacks for health?
I do not know exactly when palm oil became part of our diet, but it is in any case a recent phenomenon. Palm oil plantations spread in the early twentieth century, already intended for export at that time. When I was a child, in the 1980s, I remember that we used homemade coconut oil. Every family had a palm tree available from which to harvest coconuts to make cooking oil, without needing to buy it. But this no longer happens and most families now use palm oil. I cannot say what the health benefits and risks associated with consuming palm oil are, but I notice that Indonesians now suffer far more from heart disease.

Exports. Palm oil can be crude or refined — the latter being less healthy. Which form is most exported, and therefore most used, in the world?
Indonesia exports crude palm oil, generally, although sometimes the oil is processed locally to extract derivatives from it.

Goldman Environmental Prize. A year has passed since you were awarded the Goldman Environmental Prize, the most prestigious recognition in this field. What effects has this prize had on your work?
I would never have expected to win this prize. I have gained many benefits from the recognition, especially because I feel stronger and more motivated to continue the fight to save the environment in Indonesia.